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	<title>Comments on: Ethics of Puzzle Solving Techniques</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.somethinkodd.com/oddthinking/2006/09/13/ethics-of-puzzle-solving-techniques/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.somethinkodd.com/oddthinking/2006/09/13/ethics-of-puzzle-solving-techniques/</link>
	<description>A blog for odd things and odd thoughts.</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 13:39:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: John Armstrong</title>
		<link>http://www.somethinkodd.com/oddthinking/2006/09/13/ethics-of-puzzle-solving-techniques/comment-page-10/#comment-166619</link>
		<dc:creator>John Armstrong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 01:30:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.somethinkodd.com/oddthinking/2006/09/13/ethics-of-puzzle-solving-techniques/#comment-166619</guid>
		<description>I deal with slitherlink/etc. problems of that nature by changing the goal.  I'm just just trying to establish a solution, but to prove uniqueness.

On the other hand, this can give me a hint that I *know* this route is fruitless, and use that fact to help my search for evidence that this route will fail.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I deal with slitherlink/etc. problems of that nature by changing the goal.  I&#8217;m just just trying to establish a solution, but to prove uniqueness.</p>
<p>On the other hand, this can give me a hint that I *know* this route is fruitless, and use that fact to help my search for evidence that this route will fail.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.somethinkodd.com/oddthinking/2006/09/13/ethics-of-puzzle-solving-techniques/comment-page-1/#comment-16197</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Sep 2006 08:23:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.somethinkodd.com/oddthinking/2006/09/13/ethics-of-puzzle-solving-techniques/#comment-16197</guid>
		<description>"Cheating" is a human concept. Whether you are breaking the rules depends on what the rules are. So the answer depends on what the activity was supposed to do.

If you are demonstrating scientific ability, you should examine the question data. If you are demonstrating your ability to outsmart examiners, feel free to game the questions.

If you are trying to exercise whatever mental skill Hitori exercises, keep to the standard Hitori techniques. If you just want the answer, by all means look it up. If you are trying to exercise your brain generally, coming up with new ways to solve the puzzle are excellent; but if you render it trivial you need to move on.

Assuming there's a solution to a Sudoku puzzle, and then guessing, is generally cheating. But writing a computer program to solve it is a valuable mental exercise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Cheating&#8221; is a human concept. Whether you are breaking the rules depends on what the rules are. So the answer depends on what the activity was supposed to do.</p>
<p>If you are demonstrating scientific ability, you should examine the question data. If you are demonstrating your ability to outsmart examiners, feel free to game the questions.</p>
<p>If you are trying to exercise whatever mental skill Hitori exercises, keep to the standard Hitori techniques. If you just want the answer, by all means look it up. If you are trying to exercise your brain generally, coming up with new ways to solve the puzzle are excellent; but if you render it trivial you need to move on.</p>
<p>Assuming there&#8217;s a solution to a Sudoku puzzle, and then guessing, is generally cheating. But writing a computer program to solve it is a valuable mental exercise.</p>
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		<title>By: Sunny Kalsi</title>
		<link>http://www.somethinkodd.com/oddthinking/2006/09/13/ethics-of-puzzle-solving-techniques/comment-page-1/#comment-15937</link>
		<dc:creator>Sunny Kalsi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Sep 2006 14:55:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.somethinkodd.com/oddthinking/2006/09/13/ethics-of-puzzle-solving-techniques/#comment-15937</guid>
		<description>I actually think both definitions are correct, and despite the murky waters of "transcending" a rule-set as described by Alastair, I think both should be included in the definition. In order to see the difference, imagine a crypto system. If you break it using things like known-text, or some other well known way of cracking the key, you're breaking the key, but not the system. The solution you end up with will have different degrees of usefulness. If you break the entire crypto system then you can break into anything, anywhere. If you use man-in-the-middle, then you can break specific keys. If you use known text then you can break keys provided you know specific text. If you use ways to get at the session key then you only have the session key.

Point is, these are all solutions, and in the end your definition of "solution" could be the minimum one or the maximum one, but the one that solves the problem being put with a minimum of implied assumptions is supposed to be "correct". With known-plaintext, for example, you're meta-gaming because you know some text which ideally you wouldn't know. Different levels of "knowing" imply different levels of meta-gaming, and in fact the puzzle might even require a certain level of meta-gaming in order to be solved at all, but I think the definition of meta-gaming should be inclusive of all of these different levels.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I actually think both definitions are correct, and despite the murky waters of &#8220;transcending&#8221; a rule-set as described by Alastair, I think both should be included in the definition. In order to see the difference, imagine a crypto system. If you break it using things like known-text, or some other well known way of cracking the key, you&#8217;re breaking the key, but not the system. The solution you end up with will have different degrees of usefulness. If you break the entire crypto system then you can break into anything, anywhere. If you use man-in-the-middle, then you can break specific keys. If you use known text then you can break keys provided you know specific text. If you use ways to get at the session key then you only have the session key.</p>
<p>Point is, these are all solutions, and in the end your definition of &#8220;solution&#8221; could be the minimum one or the maximum one, but the one that solves the problem being put with a minimum of implied assumptions is supposed to be &#8220;correct&#8221;. With known-plaintext, for example, you&#8217;re meta-gaming because you know some text which ideally you wouldn&#8217;t know. Different levels of &#8220;knowing&#8221; imply different levels of meta-gaming, and in fact the puzzle might even require a certain level of meta-gaming in order to be solved at all, but I think the definition of meta-gaming should be inclusive of all of these different levels.</p>
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		<title>By: Puzzled by Software Development</title>
		<link>http://www.somethinkodd.com/oddthinking/2006/09/13/ethics-of-puzzle-solving-techniques/comment-page-1/#comment-15783</link>
		<dc:creator>Puzzled by Software Development</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Sep 2006 12:31:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.somethinkodd.com/oddthinking/2006/09/13/ethics-of-puzzle-solving-techniques/#comment-15783</guid>
		<description>[...] A recent post on OddThinking got me thinking oddly about puzzles, particularly their relevance to software engineering. Julian uses the example of some thinking which enabled him to solve a puzzle but which would not be appropriate for solving software engineering problems. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] A recent post on OddThinking got me thinking oddly about puzzles, particularly their relevance to software engineering. Julian uses the example of some thinking which enabled him to solve a puzzle but which would not be appropriate for solving software engineering problems. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Alastair</title>
		<link>http://www.somethinkodd.com/oddthinking/2006/09/13/ethics-of-puzzle-solving-techniques/comment-page-1/#comment-15750</link>
		<dc:creator>Alastair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Sep 2006 01:36:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.somethinkodd.com/oddthinking/2006/09/13/ethics-of-puzzle-solving-techniques/#comment-15750</guid>
		<description>I just proposed a merge of these two Wikipedia pages.

But which definition should win? I like the definition which appeals to specific knowledge about other players. This information is not necessarily available to all players of the game and hence deserves to be treated with deserved suspicion.

ObSimpsons reference:

Lisa and Bart are playing rock, paper, scissors.
Lisa (voiceover): Poor predictable Bart - always picks rock.
Bart (voiceover): Good old rock - nothing beats that!

The other definition of metagaming is way too broad and wishywashy for my taste. For example, *all* non-trivial strategies "transcend" the prescribed ruleset, prettymuch by definition. Consequently this definition doesn't distinguish between techniques that are ethically dubious and those than aren't.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just proposed a merge of these two Wikipedia pages.</p>
<p>But which definition should win? I like the definition which appeals to specific knowledge about other players. This information is not necessarily available to all players of the game and hence deserves to be treated with deserved suspicion.</p>
<p>ObSimpsons reference:</p>
<p>Lisa and Bart are playing rock, paper, scissors.<br />
Lisa (voiceover): Poor predictable Bart - always picks rock.<br />
Bart (voiceover): Good old rock - nothing beats that!</p>
<p>The other definition of metagaming is way too broad and wishywashy for my taste. For example, *all* non-trivial strategies &#8220;transcend&#8221; the prescribed ruleset, prettymuch by definition. Consequently this definition doesn&#8217;t distinguish between techniques that are ethically dubious and those than aren&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Julian</title>
		<link>http://www.somethinkodd.com/oddthinking/2006/09/13/ethics-of-puzzle-solving-techniques/comment-page-1/#comment-15722</link>
		<dc:creator>Julian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Sep 2006 12:00:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.somethinkodd.com/oddthinking/2006/09/13/ethics-of-puzzle-solving-techniques/#comment-15722</guid>
		<description>Alastair, Sunny,

You are both right!

Sunny linked to Wikipedia's &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagame" rel="nofollow"&gt;Metagame&lt;/a&gt; entry, which uses a definition that, as Alastair points out, is inconsistent with my behaviour.

However, Wikipedia has a separate entry on &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagaming" rel="nofollow"&gt;Metagaming&lt;/a&gt;, which uses a different definition:

&lt;blockquote&gt;broad term usually used to define any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I think that is an appropriate term here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alastair, Sunny,</p>
<p>You are both right!</p>
<p>Sunny linked to Wikipedia&#8217;s <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagame" rel="nofollow" class="wikipedia">Metagame</a> entry, which uses a definition that, as Alastair points out, is inconsistent with my behaviour.</p>
<p>However, Wikipedia has a separate entry on <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagaming" rel="nofollow" class="wikipedia">Metagaming</a>, which uses a different definition:</p>
<blockquote><p>broad term usually used to define any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game.</p></blockquote>
<p>I think that is an appropriate term here.</p>
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		<title>By: OddThinking &#187; Meta-Gaming and Hitori</title>
		<link>http://www.somethinkodd.com/oddthinking/2006/09/13/ethics-of-puzzle-solving-techniques/comment-page-1/#comment-15686</link>
		<dc:creator>OddThinking &#187; Meta-Gaming and Hitori</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Sep 2006 14:49:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.somethinkodd.com/oddthinking/2006/09/13/ethics-of-puzzle-solving-techniques/#comment-15686</guid>
		<description>[...] In response to a few questions, I will attempt to explain the heart of my meta-gaming issue in more detail with an example from Hitori. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] In response to a few questions, I will attempt to explain the heart of my meta-gaming issue in more detail with an example from Hitori. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Alastair</title>
		<link>http://www.somethinkodd.com/oddthinking/2006/09/13/ethics-of-puzzle-solving-techniques/comment-page-1/#comment-15684</link>
		<dc:creator>Alastair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Sep 2006 13:39:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.somethinkodd.com/oddthinking/2006/09/13/ethics-of-puzzle-solving-techniques/#comment-15684</guid>
		<description>Sunny, the definition of metagame you pointed to said that it was "a prediction of how others will make decisions in a game based on their personality or their previous decisions"

In Julian's example, who are the "others"? The puzzle maker?

I think Julian is more concerned about using the knowledge *that it is a puzzle* in order to solve the puzzle. He's not using any specific knowledge about anyone else. Subtle difference.

On the other hand I think his Dad *is* metagaming.

Two comments from me, no good answers to the fundamental ethics question. It's a hard one.

I'm reminded of the scene from one of the Star Trek movies where Kirk describes how he beat the unbeatable computer in his final test. Turns out he hacked into it and changed the rules. Now that really *is* cheating. He should have been expelled instead of getting a "commendation for original thinking" or whatever it was. Starfleet Academy are really letting their standards slip. Or they will be. Or something.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sunny, the definition of metagame you pointed to said that it was &#8220;a prediction of how others will make decisions in a game based on their personality or their previous decisions&#8221;</p>
<p>In Julian&#8217;s example, who are the &#8220;others&#8221;? The puzzle maker?</p>
<p>I think Julian is more concerned about using the knowledge *that it is a puzzle* in order to solve the puzzle. He&#8217;s not using any specific knowledge about anyone else. Subtle difference.</p>
<p>On the other hand I think his Dad *is* metagaming.</p>
<p>Two comments from me, no good answers to the fundamental ethics question. It&#8217;s a hard one.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m reminded of the scene from one of the Star Trek movies where Kirk describes how he beat the unbeatable computer in his final test. Turns out he hacked into it and changed the rules. Now that really *is* cheating. He should have been expelled instead of getting a &#8220;commendation for original thinking&#8221; or whatever it was. Starfleet Academy are really letting their standards slip. Or they will be. Or something.</p>
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		<title>By: Alastair</title>
		<link>http://www.somethinkodd.com/oddthinking/2006/09/13/ethics-of-puzzle-solving-techniques/comment-page-1/#comment-15683</link>
		<dc:creator>Alastair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Sep 2006 13:26:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.somethinkodd.com/oddthinking/2006/09/13/ethics-of-puzzle-solving-techniques/#comment-15683</guid>
		<description>Hangon, what if b1 isn't even *in* the answer? I don't know what sort of puzzles you are trying to solve, but not all of them give a complete solution; for example, you might just need to provide the middle word of a crossword.

If you're wrong about b1 being in the answer, you will presumably discover that fact when you work through the rest of the puzzle. But this is exactly equivalent to the guess-and-backtrack technique that so many puzzles require. The point being: if you don't know that b1 is in the answer, then all you're doing is guessing, which can't be cheating prettymuch by definition.

I guess this doesn't really answer your question though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hangon, what if b1 isn&#8217;t even *in* the answer? I don&#8217;t know what sort of puzzles you are trying to solve, but not all of them give a complete solution; for example, you might just need to provide the middle word of a crossword.</p>
<p>If you&#8217;re wrong about b1 being in the answer, you will presumably discover that fact when you work through the rest of the puzzle. But this is exactly equivalent to the guess-and-backtrack technique that so many puzzles require. The point being: if you don&#8217;t know that b1 is in the answer, then all you&#8217;re doing is guessing, which can&#8217;t be cheating prettymuch by definition.</p>
<p>I guess this doesn&#8217;t really answer your question though.</p>
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		<title>By: Sunny Kalsi</title>
		<link>http://www.somethinkodd.com/oddthinking/2006/09/13/ethics-of-puzzle-solving-techniques/comment-page-1/#comment-15680</link>
		<dc:creator>Sunny Kalsi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Sep 2006 13:03:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.somethinkodd.com/oddthinking/2006/09/13/ethics-of-puzzle-solving-techniques/#comment-15680</guid>
		<description>What you're worried about is &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagame" rel="nofollow"&gt;metagaming&lt;/a&gt;. This is a sticky issue, especially in games such as D&#38;D, where there's the veil of pretence surrounding the game and strategy. You might know what the right thing to do is (and a lot of power-gamers just go ahead and do it), but you must also consider the motivations of the character.

As for whether it's cheating probably depends on exactly what you're doing. There's a bunch of games where you're expected to metagame. There's a host of problems where you're given two choices, but in reality you're meant to choose a third (because the two given are red herrings). You could claim this is "cheating", because you're picking a choice outside the two, but it's the correct answer.

For other games, this is not the case, but &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt; cheating means you're just making it harder on yourself, or trying to solve a harder problem. You might get more out of that problem (if it's worth solving) but if the goal is just the solution then it doesn't matter how you win.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What you&#8217;re worried about is <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagame" rel="nofollow" class="wikipedia">metagaming</a>. This is a sticky issue, especially in games such as D&amp;D, where there&#8217;s the veil of pretence surrounding the game and strategy. You might know what the right thing to do is (and a lot of power-gamers just go ahead and do it), but you must also consider the motivations of the character.</p>
<p>As for whether it&#8217;s cheating probably depends on exactly what you&#8217;re doing. There&#8217;s a bunch of games where you&#8217;re expected to metagame. There&#8217;s a host of problems where you&#8217;re given two choices, but in reality you&#8217;re meant to choose a third (because the two given are red herrings). You could claim this is &#8220;cheating&#8221;, because you&#8217;re picking a choice outside the two, but it&#8217;s the correct answer.</p>
<p>For other games, this is not the case, but <em>not</em> cheating means you&#8217;re just making it harder on yourself, or trying to solve a harder problem. You might get more out of that problem (if it&#8217;s worth solving) but if the goal is just the solution then it doesn&#8217;t matter how you win.</p>
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